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Problems with the current fighting system.

Discussion in 'Feedback and Wishlist' started by Sarpedon, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    I've played through the current build five times on moderate difficulty, and have developed some strong concerns and opinions with the fighting system and controls. I'd like to outline them here.
    • TURNING AROUND
    • No control list
    • Unclear grappling
    • Floaty/laggy movement
    • Weapon balancing
    • Gangbanged (offensively, not sexually)

    Now to cover them with detail.

    Turning Around is the most frustrating thing this game has, and the game suffers from this mechanic very much. In any beat-em-up worth it's salt, turning around is instant. Being unable to instantly respond to an enemy behind you makes this game barely playable on higher difficulty. A game's challenge should NEVER come from the controls in place.

    Think about any arcade beat-em-up you've ever played; Turtles in Time, X-men, Strider, they all gave you a great sense of control over your actions because a player's desired commands were easily translated into the game. Good beat-em-ups never suffer from, "I can't hit this guy behind me because I'm running backwards!" Good beat-em-ups benefit from, "Ah! He's behind me! (immediately turns around and punches in the face) Ha! Teach you to get behind me!"

    Giving a rear kick is a poor solution to forced moonwalking. The rear kick is slow, lacking power or knockdown, and leaves you open to lots of punishment. Rear kicking needs to be removed, and simple instant turn needs to be implemented.

    No Control List is more of an inconvenience than a problem, but an inconvenience that requires attention nonetheless. Essentially leaving the player up to trial and error isn't a wrong decision, but doing so with a good attempt at depth to the combat system is unwise. There are so many different attacks and movements in Bare Backstreets, that trying to figure it out with no instruction means many players won't experience half of what you can do. Again, this isn't a problem so much as an inconvenience, but simply having a list of what buttons do what, and how to grapple and wield equipment (switching and throwing mostly) would be a HUGE improvement and allow all players to properly experiment with the game's fighting system.

    Unclear Grappling has become a pet peeve of mine. The only selectable character for the moment is apparently great at grappling, but doing so will usually get you punished, or end with just a shove. Truth be told I enjoyed the grapples I managed, but they were never intentional. Two things will make the grappling system far clearer, and more of a player choice than a roll of the dice.

    Add a graphic for the grappling attempt. A simple image of some orange streaks when making the grapple lunge will allow players to both identify when an enemy is trying to grapple them, and let them know their grapple command went through. Adding a small white flash localized to the grappled target (be it yourself or an enemy) will give the player the feedback necessary to let them know they have grappled successfully, and can now chose what finisher they want to perform.

    Grappling is fun, and the fighting system for grappling is fun. The system needs to be clearer; its as simple as adding two images.

    Floaty/Laggy Movement contributes to the problems already in place with the current game engine. Need to turn around? Need to do a jump attack? Need to beat off a horde of enemies? Good luck cause you're going to have to wait. If someone were to put up a side-by-side comparison of Bare Backstreets and a successful title like Castle Crashers, you'd see a considerable speed difference in how both games play. I'd be willing to put together such a video if I owned Castle Crashers for PC, so that may have to wait for another time.

    Returning to something I've already mentioned before, being unable to turn around immediately is a huge hindrance that is magnified by the lethargic fighting system. Taking out the rear kick and replacing it with an instant turnaround will solve many combat issues. I believe that this change will also help a player compensate for the slower combat currently in place.

    Another thing to be addressed is the jumping mechanic. The jump attack is very useful in this game. The knockdown and damage is very good, and it generally leaves the player in good position to keep fighting other enemies. Jumping is the only problem to the jump kick. I rarely managed the jump kick when I needed it because the jump is too slow. After hitting the jump command and clearly seeing the jump animation begin, following up with the attack command left Vergence grounded and throwing a weak punch. Needing to wait to actually become airborne mean the jump kick is only useful against single enemies as groups or even pairs will be able to easily stop your jump and punish you with a down status.

    Making the jump kick occur when a player hits the jump key and follows with the attack key, instead of having to wait to be airborne, will give much more control to the player, give more life to the current controls, and allow for more enemy variations (flying enemies).

    Weapon Balancing is a difficult topic for me as I'm not sure if I've used every weapon available. Essentially, the taser didn't work like in the trailer (I've yet to figure out how to aim it while firing), the assault rifle has always served me better as a projectile (I threw it) than shooting projectiles, and the dildo bats are by far the best. The grenade launcher is really in need of some work as it is completely useless unless your character is at one extreme and the enemies are at the other. Because enemies almost always come from both sides of the screen, this makes the grenade launcher usually hit you and an enemy, or hit an enemy then get you punished by the other enemy. Considering the damage and knockdown status the grenade launcher gives; it is a desirable gun, but the current design choice of enemy spawns labels it more of a decoration for the ground than as a godsend to demolish your enemies.

    Some suggestions for balancing:
    • Taser: more damage or no damage with instant down status
    • Dildo Bats: give each variety a different swing and damage. Long Purple is a thrust with more reach and less damage, Stubby Red/Yellow is a close range overhead with more power
    • Assault Rifle: fire very weak projectiles very fast that stop or push back enemies, but doesn't cause down status
    • Grenade Launcher: decrease the explosion radius of the projectile, and/or make the firing arc straight out and falling instead of angled up and falling.
    Gangbanged by enemies happens a bit too frequently considering this is a first level of a beat-em-up. The challenge of a smartly designed game increases as the game progresses. This first level isn't designed poorly, I like it in fact, but the controls in place make it drastically more difficult than the level actually is. This game is headed down the path of many bad games; controls leading to failure instead of player ability leading to failure. I am 100% certain that making changes to the controls (hopefully along the lines of stuff I have mentioned) will create a beat-em-up that not only has wonderful erotic visuals, but incredible game-play to go with it.

    To sum up, the game is fun and flawed. I've enjoyed my time with it, but I am plagued by problems that are easily and not so easily remedied, and should be immediately addressed. The reward of high quality sex animations shouldn't be made into a grinding hell because a player can't clear out the enemies they want due to controls holding them back. I believe that initially, potential players voted for a change in game engine (or something else important, I forget) due to the smooth animation that would be provided. Visuals are great! This game's visuals are great! However, this is still a game. Don't forget that a game's game-play comes first; otherwise you'd have been better off and saved many people's time and money making an animated video. Hope my insight and opinions help!
     
    Bourlingueur and radman1889 like this.
  2. radman1889

    radman1889 Member

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    Turning around - I agree. The delay with direction change is a bit annoying. I think it was to make the character not go full speed on a turn around, but they can do that while making a directional change instant.
    No control list - This too, but they're working on it now by adding the tutorial.
    Unclear grappling - Kind of, generally you just have to move straight on into an enemy. I suppose they could just add a button for it, but that'd present its own set of problems. 3 buttons I think is enough, and the physics of it could get messy.
    Floaty/laggy movement - This I think mostly has to do with the animation style of the game. Wouldn't take much I think to balance it back out
    Weapon balancing - If you played the first build before the patch that fixed the boss, you'd see how OP weapons were. You could take the taser into the boss and kill him in like 5 seconds. But now they nerfed em a lot in the patch where they barely do anything. Just takes some tinkering with balance to get it right.
    Gangbanged - It's a common staple of fighting games. You just need to learn to handle mobs. I think they just need to change where they show up, cuz the mobs seem to show up near the middle of the level, when the end of the level would be more appropriate.

    In short, just remember that this is an alpha, so more work will always be put into it.:p
     
  3. KiWolfGirl

    KiWolfGirl Member

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    I agree with the turning around and the floaty feeling movements. The tutorial with controls will come, it's an alpha.
    For grappling I agree there could be a better system for the actual grabbing, but once you play around, you will see what is consistent.
    From my experience, mashing attack did a knee and headbutt, pushing forward did a shove, pushing up was overhead lift, down was the DDT, and back was suplex lift.
     
  4. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    In response to both of you who have replied to my thread:

    I am aware that this is an alpha, and that is why I have done my best to make clear what good beat-em-ups have that this game lacks. My opinions are my own attempt to benefit the development of the game.

    To radman: the gangbang gripes that I had are because of the slow-to-respond controls. Yes, playing the game is a huge part of the point I was trying to make, and players will have different skill levels. To sum up what I tried to say in detail, concerning dealing with big mobs, is that a player shouldn't have to be forced to play a certain way because controls can't handle a variety of strategies.

    As for grappling...
    My intention with my opinion in this respect is to point out that grappling as a mechanic is fine, but is not giving the player enough feedback.

    Making the grapple a button combo, (such as double tap towards target + attack) and adding in a couple graphics will not only make the game mechanic easier to use, but versatile as well.

    Being able to grab an enemy as they get up is quite hard. Commonly a player will walk over/through the body instead of making a grab attempt, and waiting till after the enemy is on their feet will frequently get you punched, canceling the grapple attempt. Making the grapple a button combo instead of a response to forward motion and proximity, makes the grapple significantly more usable.

    Think of any beat-em-up and how their grapples work. Flash games, indie games, AAA titles; do you know of any popular titles that use a grapple system that is activated by moving into someone?

    Castle Crashers, Viewtful Joe, Strider, Turtles in Time, X-men, Phantom Breaker Battle Grounds, any Platinum (the company) title, etc. They all have a specific button or button combo to pull off a grapple.

    Please keep pinging your thoughts off my own; the discussion is quite constructive and could create strong feedback.
     
  5. KiWolfGirl

    KiWolfGirl Member

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    Well pretty much every beatem up with grappling is activated by walking into them. Very few I can bring to mind have button combinations for a grab though sometimes I prefer that.
    - All the Final Fights
    - Battle Circuit
    - Alien vs Predator
    - All the Streets of rage games
    - vendetta
    - metamorphic force
    - denjin makai/guardians
    - the sailer moon beat em ups
    - captain commando
    - cadillacs and dinosaurs
    I keep mentioning Capcom beat em ups but basically every one they did with grappling is done by walking into them. Pretty much every classic beat em up with grappling works this way. Viewtiful Joe didn't have grappling, Turtles in Time didn't have true grappling, it was just one of the ends to the combo and it only happened based on your distance, throwing enemies in X-men was random too, there was no player controlled way to guarantee it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
  6. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    Viewtiful Joe had a throw named "Yamaarashi". To be fair, this was in Viewtiful Joe 2; a complete oversight on my part.
    The Final Fight games still required a button combination to throw. I think I'm being misunderstood when I say "Making the grapple a button combo". Being right up in an enemy's personal space is necessary for grapples, and I am not and have not said anything against this positioning. What I want is to get up in their safety bubble, hit a quick two button or directional + attack to take hold of their body and show them just how little control they have over themselves.
     
  7. KiWolfGirl

    KiWolfGirl Member

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    So you're talking about the throw itself, not the actual grappling? Like once you grapple, you want the throw to be direction+attack instead of just direction? I guess that does make a bit more sense if you do have to use movement to initiate the grapple to begin with. I think the right combinations are "button for grab, direction for throw" like smash brothers, or "directions (pressing into enemy) for grab, button+direction for throw." That would help with accidentally throwing someone the second you grapple them, which I've ended up doing a bit.
     
  8. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    The initiation of the grapple, yes. I haven't been specific enough, and I think that has taken away from the points I was trying to make. That's my fault, and I'm sorry for it.

    The concept of turning the grapple initiation into something like Smash Bros is the kind of concept I've been attempting to refer to.
     
  9. Drizzt

    Drizzt New Member

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    As a devoted gamer, I completely agree with all of the above.
     
  10. RoyArtorius

    RoyArtorius Master Knight of the Dark Lord Team Amorous Moderator

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    I take that very personally sir, I am heavy advocate of "game-play comes first, everything else is second" and game-play was the entire focus of the game.
     
  11. RoyArtorius

    RoyArtorius Master Knight of the Dark Lord Team Amorous Moderator

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    Referring to the turning, because of the revamp I could implement more intricate behaviour. Now the player can attack immediately when turning around to face an enemy.
     
    Drizzt likes this.
  12. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    That my opinions, critiques and suggestions were noticed by someone on the "Team Amorous" team came as an unexpected event. Thank you for looking over what I've had to say, and for responding to me in kind.

    As for your quote of my remark; I apologize for causing offense, but stand by what I've said. My words unintentionally cut into the emotions of those who put amazing effort into the creation of this game on a daily basis, and I am sorry for any damage I've caused.

    When I say that I stand by what I've said, I am referring to my opinions of the game mechanics, cohesion, stability, etc. I'll try to watch my words better the next time I say something as a critic.

    I've not tried out any of the updates yet, so I'll probably have something to say once I have. Until then, please keep up your tireless quest to create a beat-em-up game of furry porn!
     
  13. RoyArtorius

    RoyArtorius Master Knight of the Dark Lord Team Amorous Moderator

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    No damage done :) Now that I've thought about it I haven't really played beat em up games so I guess I did forget game play, though Jason designed it
     
  14. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    Sounds like you've been doing a fine job with what you've been given. It pleases me to know that you're so dedicated, and also open-minded, to the game's development as a game and the opinions of those who are testing it.
     
  15. DariusDurrgon

    DariusDurrgon New Member

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    I dunno if this was said since I skimmed through the thread but gangbang happens because of the floaty movement and inability to turn. Atleast that makes it easier to get beat up by a bunch of mobs. I think a block feature could prevent this.
     
  16. Sarpedon

    Sarpedon New Member

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    Movement and turning were discussed in my massive block of text.
     

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